Welcome to our latest episode! Today, we’re joined by Mario Dattilo, an expert in the commercial real estate space with over $100M in assets under management and ownership of more than 1,000 mobile home lots. Mario began his journey in real estate in 2006, transitioning from single-family flips to mobile home parks and other niche asset classes like self-storage and light industrial properties. His hands-on experience in turning distressed assets into stable, cash-flowing investments offers a wealth of knowledge for both new and seasoned investors.
In this episode, Mario shares the fundamentals of mobile home park investing, from understanding the distinction between mobile and manufactured homes to the operational efficiencies that make this asset class unique. He discusses the challenges of finding deals in today’s competitive market, the consolidation trends within the industry, and the high demand for affordable housing. Mario also offers a detailed look into his strategy for acquiring undervalued properties, improving them, and maximizing returns for investors.
If you’re looking to gain insights into a stable and scalable investment strategy in real estate, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in now!
HIGHLIGHTS OF THE EPISODE
00:00 – Welcome to the BigMikeFund Podcast
00:23 – Guest intro: Mario Dattilo
01:06 – From single-family flips to mobile home parks
03:32 – Mobile and manufactured homes explained
06:15 – Operational efficiencies and tenant dynamics in mobile home parks
10:42 – Current trends in affordable housing
15:10 – Strategies for improving mobile home parks
19:25 – Consolidation trends and institutional interest in the industry
25:34 – Long-term investment outlook and why timing matters
28:30 – How to connect with Mario
If you found this episode substantial and want to dig deeper into real estate, or maybe you want to discover better investment opportunities, be sure to check out www.tempofunding.com.
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CONNECT WITH THE GUEST
Website: https://mariodattilo.net/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariodattilo/
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Full Transcript:
Mike Zlotnik: Welcome to the BigMikeFund Podcast. I’m the Big Mike, I’m Mike Zlotnik, and today it is my pleasure and a privilege to welcome Mario Dattilo. Hey Mario.
Mario Dattilo: Hey Mike, how’s it going man? Thanks for having me on.
Mike Zlotnik: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Mario is a specialist in the manufactured home, uh, parks. He’s been doing this since 2014.
And Mario, would you be so kind just to give us a little bit, uh, an introduction about you, kind of how much business you’ve done, uh, how much AEN you have, and then we’ll go back. One of the immediate questions that kind of hits the mind. What’s the difference between manufactured homes and mobile home parks? Uh, so first Mario, where do you live? A little bit about you and then your history, track record, et cetera.
Mario Dattilo: Yeah, I got started in this industry. I live in, uh, Naples, Florida. Got started in this industry about 2013 is when we tied up our first manufactured home community. I didn’t start out in that world. I actually started out in the single family business back in 2006.
I had a real estate brokerage and a mortgage company in Minnesota with a partner and the market tanked in 2008. I was helping a ton of investors buy like single families and flip them and then I Dispo it on the back end for them and I went to my dad who is in construction for his whole life Uh, commercial and residential said, look, we should be buying these.
I’m helping these guys make all this money. We should just be buying these ourselves and you do the rehab. I’ll do the acquisitions and dispo. And, uh, from about 2008 to 2012, 13, we did a lot of, you know, single family home flips, bought notes, all kinds of distressed real estate in that time. And, uh, Then we decided we wanted to get into passive income, uh, passive income, right?
Uh, or at least consistent cash flowing assets, and so we went towards the direction of apartment buildings, just because it was, you know, something that we were familiar with coming from single family. And stumbled across a mobile home park, bought that deal, and, uh, nothing’s ever been the same. Heh, pretty much been pursuing mobile home park investments, self storage, small bay light, industrial, Um, some RV parks. Yep.
Mike Zlotnik: So you’ve got a little bit of diversification, not just, uh, manufactured homes, you’ve got, as you said, self storage, RV parks. So what’s the difference between manufactured and mobile home?
Mario Dattilo: Yeah. So it’s a technicality, the term manufactured home started in, uh, 1976 when HUD code, uh, went into place and.
Mobile homes or trailers as what people still call them sometimes, you know, those weren’t under any sort of government code. So the older homes, you know, they weren’t built to any standards. And then HUD stepped in and said, you know, we’re going to standardize this. You have to meet certain code. And that’s, uh, in 1976, anything at older than that is technically a mobile home.
And anything newer than that is a manufactured home. If you were to put a 1976 and a 1977 next to each other You wouldn’t be able to tell the difference because it’s just purely they’ve got a HUD stamp on the back and they meet certain code.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I hear you this and then just ask one question on this. So I’ve seen again in my head. So one is technical definition, of course, mobile home parks. Typically, what is it? Are RV parks or it’s a little different?
Mario Dattilo: RV
Mike Zlotnik: is. RV parks are different from the mobile home parks, right?
Mario Dattilo: Yeah. And people still call it mobile home parks. When you go to any conferences or any industry type, uh, events or any industry type material.
Uh, collaterally, you’re always going to see them call it manufactured housing because they’re obviously trying to rebrand and make sure that people aren’t thinking about old, crappy trailer parks, right, when they hear mobile home park. But the most commonly used term is mobile home park, right? Um, but RV parks are different.
Think of mobile home parks as being, you know, a for profit homeowners association. The owner owns the land, the infrastructure, the common area, and the amenities. The residents own their homes, they pay a lot rent, okay, and they live there. It’s like, it’s multi family, right? And then when you jump over to the RV side, that is going to be, think of more like, um, hospitality, right?
A motel, hotel, somebody pulls their RV in, camper in, whatever, and they keep it there for a period of time, and then they pull it out, they’re still on wheels. It’s, it’s a much more transient type asset. There are long term RV parks, but they can still drive out. And it’s a very different business. We own both, mostly mobile home parks, but we do own some RV.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, it makes sense. It’s a great explanation. It’s almost like a hotel. You, you come in there, uh, you, you might have a different neighbor, uh, in a couple of days, right? Versus the, uh, mobile home parks or manufactured home parks. The neighbors are still the same for extended period of time, 20 years, 20 years.
So technically they can still be moved, but manufactured homes, they get brought in and stalled, right? They get connected to sewer, and they are literally, I mean, Theoretically, they could be moved. Practically, they’re there. They’re
Mario Dattilo: not very mobile. Yeah, they’re fixed. They’re tied down, skirted. They’re on blocks.
They’re pretty permanent. They can be moved, but it’s very expensive to move one. An RV, you just hook up and pull out the manufactured homes. You know, you’re going to spend at least 3, 000 moving it. And to set it up at the new location, it’s going to be call it 15 to 20, 000. So they’re not very mobile, right? So most people who own manufactured homes never moved that home.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah. It just reminds me sometimes you’re on a highway and they try that they see a gigantic truck was moving and it says wide load. And it’s moving, I guess, that manufactured or mobile home to the new location, or either brand newly built, or from one to another, but it’s an expensive endeavor to actually make the move.
Mario Dattilo: It is, yeah. And our fund has acquired these communities, um, like I said, for over 11 years. We’ve probably had less than 10 homes move out of our entire portfolio of over a thousand lots in that period of time. Very, very rare. Very rare. They always sell to the next buyer. So, you know, if somebody’s, wants to move, they just, you know, list their home, they market it, they find a buyer, they buy it as a community.
We approve that buyer just like an HOA would, and we don’t miss a beat on the rent, which is one reason why it is such an attractive investment compared to most other property types. We don’t have the turnover costs. We don’t have the, you know, make ready. We don’t have the downtime that you have in apartments or almost any other property type.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I got you. So, uh, does your fund own most of the just just the land and the infrastructure versus the, because I’ve heard sometimes. You own some of these homes and you just rent them out. Then you then it becomes like a multifamily in essence versus you basically just own the land and the infrastructure and then every owner is is a tenant, uh, like an HOA type of a setup.
Mario Dattilo: Yeah, our, our communities are almost 100 percent Tenant owned homes. Um, so we operate on lot rent and land leases essentially, but there are two business models There’s the rental model and the in the tenant owned model. The rental model is the less attractive harder to finance harder to market and You might as well just go buy an apartment building because that’s what you’re buying, but you’re buying it with, you know, manufactured homes that are obviously going to take more repair and maintenance than a, than an apartment building.
So we have bought communities that were completely park owned homes, and we’ve converted that to a lot rent model. Can’t do that at every one of them, but the ones that we have bought that way, that that was the business model is convert them. There are some people who continue to run them as rental communities and in some rural markets, you’ll see that.
is the only way to run it just because the rents are too low to do a lot rent model, but, um, not something I would recommend someone, uh, doing unless they really want to have a management intense property. The reason you buy a mobile home park is because you have lower expense ratio. Than most other property types, right?
You maintain a lot less on that asset because you don’t have to maintain the units the tenants do right? You have you have ground leases or lot rent and um, they’re fairly I don’t they’re not a passive investment by any means they are a lot more boring of a property to manage once They’re stabilized than most other property types as well.
We have very little turnover. Turnover is less than 10%, typically around 5 percent per year. If you look at any other property type with a, maybe a couple of exceptions, that’s very rare. We have, you know, call it 2 to 3, maybe 4 in 100 space community move out per year. That’s crazy. And we don’t have expenses associated with that. So it’s a very, um, stable asset to own once they are stabilized.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And, um, so a couple of sort of follow up questions. So, like you said, it’s not really passive. It is an active investment. But with the same token, like a self storage, people say it’s passive. Well, you still have to manage it.
These are, um, these, I guess, it’s the same way that people even, uh, in the same category. Well, any of these investments, they’re not purely passive. I mean, even, even multifamily community is a lot of work involved. You just have less work involved. So self storage and manufactured home parks, uh, less work than obviously multifamily and some other active asset classes.
Mario Dattilo: I’ll, I’ll rank them for you. Okay. Okay. I own all of them. Uh, Apartments, definitely the most management intense. Then self storage, then mobile home parks. I’d throw RVs above mobile home parks. Okay, actually, RV is probably side by side with
Mike Zlotnik: industrial, open air shopping. Those are a lot less The less management intensive, you’re dealing with more sophisticated tenants, probably to the degree similar to yours, except for you are dealing with the companies as tenants versus the individual folks.
Mario Dattilo: Yeah, those type of tenants are going to be a triple net typically, and there’s still asset management responsibilities, but not as much property management responsibilities. So you’re still negotiating tax, insurance, legal issues, things like that, but you don’t have the turnover, you’re not negotiating leases every month.
Mike Zlotnik: They’re long term, everything is long term. And then, even though you probably, you land lease terms are, what, annual or monthly, they, most of them, like you said, they stick around for a long time. You may have a monthly rent, like a self storage, but people may have the box for three years.
Mario Dattilo: Yes. Yes. And I would say, self storage definitely has more turnover than mobile home parks. Mobile home parks are either on an annual lease or they’re an annual and then convert to a month to month, but the homes don’t move So again, the tenant might move out, but they’re gonna sell it to someone else who takes over their lease. We don’t miss any rent
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I guess you approve a new tenant. Now, let’s talk about the economic returns in this space So when you buy these mobile home parks, what kind of returns do you target?
What kind of cap rates you buy them at? Uh, you know, we’re recording this early part of 2025. What are the cap rates today? What kind of cash flows to generate? What kind of target returns? Uh, just curious how this asset class, uh, performs. And obviously, Very specifically referring to the current market conditions with the interest rates are high Which make it a little bit more difficult to get financing, etc
Mario Dattilo: I’m gonna i’m gonna back up one and and I will answer this question But I want to start out with something else because this will make a lot more sense My initial answer is always it depends on what you pay right because everybody says oh mobile home park self storage It’s such you know, those are cash cows, right?
Well, it depends. If you overpay and over leverage, it’s going to be a crap, crap cash flow deal, right? So, but this is why the opportunity in manufactured housing is so attractive right now, and it’s not going to stay this way, okay? It’s because there’s consolidation happening, and it’s really two different things.
Number one, extremely high demand for affordable housing. Extreme. We hear about it every day on the news, right? Decreasing supply Of these assets, you can’t build them. All right zoning departments will not allow new construction of mobile home parks in most markets So you have decreasing supply increasing demand We’re not worried about competition.
Nobody’s putting a park in across the street from us, right? So it’s a if you own these assets Super valuable, okay? Because they’re going away, and they’re in high demand. Secondly, we have consolidation happening. These communities, if you look at the chart, and when all these communities were developed, they were developed between the 1950s and the early 1990s.
Nothing after that, because zoning laws started getting implemented in most markets. And so, the people who developed these communities literally with their bare hands, You know, dredging out, uh, lines and everything for the sewer and water, and some of them even still live in these communities, are now retiring and dying.
Okay? They have to sell, and they’re selling at a time where the market is, you know, not attractive to sell. So there’s underlying motivation for them to sell. They’re either passing it on to their kids, they’re dying, or they’re retiring. That’s it. Okay? A lot of kids don’t want to touch it. It’s, it’s not sexy, right?
So, You’ve got sellers who have this secret relationship going on, agreement with their tenants. I won’t raise rents, but don’t expect me to do anything. Okay, meaning I’m not going to fix, I’m not going to maintain anything, and in return, I’m going to keep your lot rents low. That’s an unspoken arrangement.
And what’s happened is the condition of these communities have went down and The rents have stayed abnormally low compared to all other property types. They haven’t kept up with inflation. So you’ve got all these sellers that are willing to sell. They don’t even care about a cap rate. They know they need to make $2 million to retire, and that’s their number, right?
So you go to them, you negotiate a deal. They’ve left a ton of meat on the bone, a ton of opportunity to force values up, and most of these opportunities are like. Management strategies, billing back utilities, raising rents, doing CapEx improvements to modernize the community to then bring them to market rents, right?
So, very predictable business plans that can be implemented to get the value up and create, you know, there’s a lot of opportunity there. So, Now to answer your question, you know that opportunity isn’t going to last long It’s probably five years and then it’s consolidated just like most other property types You’ll be buying from institutional or at least professional owners again.
So you’re buying at market cap rates All right, you’re not doing that right now. So you kind of got this abnormal opportunity there But we aren’t really looking at going in cap rate because if your lot rents are three hundred dollars And the market is pretty good 480 or 550 or 600, you know, our cap rates may be pretty low going in, but within one year to one to two years, we’re at a 10 cap stabilize our, our target to answer your question.
Our target is to be at a 10 percent cap rate upon stabilization, and we’re buying things that we can stabilize in one to two years. Okay. Um, cash on cash return, uniquely positive compared to most other property types. Because when we say, Hey, we’re setting a 7 percent or an 8 percent prep or whatever that prep is, we’re buying properties that actually hit or exceed that prep in cashflow year one.
We’re not buying things that accrue prep for multiple years. They actually cashflow very strong because our expense ratios are call it You know 38 to 43 percent expense ratio, um when stabilized so just an answer.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I appreciate that Let me dissect this a little bit. Um, so stabilize you have a target of cash on cash I guess 10 cap rate, uh, which is a great obviously target hard to find in some of the asset classes Although after the value at work projects, uh that buy, you know cheap unimproved a lot of upside It’s a typical value story in a play.
I assume the tenants don’t mind and how much resistance you get. So they’re paying 300 a lot, um, rent today. Uh, are they capable of mentally and with their wallet paid 500 a lot rent, but you take that. But you improve their living conditions. You create some common, you know, improvements. I kind of think of this, these type of communities where they’re used to this and they don’t want to change anything.
You can build them a nice playground or something else. They say my kids will grow it up. I don’t care about this stuff. Don’t just, I just want to pay what I pay. So I’m just curious how much resistance you get. Do you have to go change the, you know, how much actually over?
Mario Dattilo: Yeah. So what we do, we are not the company to go in and just double rents over year over year. That’s not us. There are a few groups that have done that. And they’ve ended up on the front page of the paper and on all the news channels. And it’s kind of created some issues. in the industry. That is not us. Um, we’re not slumlords. We’ll go in, we’ll make the physical improvements first. Um, so they visually see the community changing.
We bring in professional management and then we do start bringing rents to market. And what we have to explain to them and educate them on is number one, You haven’t had rent increases for years, and every other property has around you. Look at the competition. Look at your other options. This is what rents at apartments are going for.
This is what rents at other mobile home parks are going for. This is where you’re at. We’ve made the improvements. We’re bringing you to market over a period of time, usually over a few years. Okay. And here are your competitors. Our competitors, if you’d like to move there, you’re welcome to do that. But we’re still less expensive and we’re a better value than the others.
Secondly, um, they are, they will complain, but at the same time, they realize what’s happened. They’ve lived in a slum. And we do have a little bit of turnover in some scenarios. But it’s not as much as you would think because they know that it’s cheap. Where else can you live for three hundred dollars a month, um, plus utilities?
Now keep in mind, most of these homes are owned free and clear. So they don’t have a mortgage on top of their lot rent. So it is still very inexpensive even if you’re at five or six hundred dollars a month in lot rent. You can’t live anywhere else for that unless it’s subsidized by the government.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, makes sense. So the strategy makes sense. I guess the, uh, you got to abide right from a, uh, retiring owner who is most susceptible to, uh, let’s just call it a friendly deal versus a professionally owned, uh, maximized Type of a return type of owners. And we’ve actually seen and heard, at least I I’ve, I’ve seen and heard institutional ownership in some of these communities.
Usually the larger ones, the smaller ones are still mom and pop. And, uh, the moment you go larger institutional capital has found ways to enter that business because of all the things you’ve described. And, uh, there’s been some consolidation already happening. Although the, the smaller community will probably never be a target for institutional money. So that’s where you can make, uh, private deals, but you’re trading at a generally cap rates, you know, meaningfully higher than the, uh, Uh, larger communities.
Mario Dattilo: We, we, we’ve seen that there’s two phases of consolidation, right? You’ve got the initial consolidation of the smaller professional investors. We’re going out, we’re buying these assets, right?
And we found the business model. That makes sense, and we’re turning these into professionally run, stabilized, quality investments, right? And then behind that, you have the institutional guys, the REITs, the private equity, the family offices, the insurance companies. Those guys look and they go, huh, this inves these investors have figured out a way to institutionalize this asset.
Let’s go by that, right? So they go out and they buy the larger, you know, built up stabilize portfolios and you are seeing that on the backend, which is a very good thing for us assembling these portfolios, accruing these portfolios because we have a backend institutional buyer to exit to that will pay a premium cap rate on those assets once they’re clean.
But they don’t want to buy the two, The messy deals because they don’t have the operational capacity To stabilize them. We just bought a 130 site community great market Um, it’s an institutional quality asset. It can be financed through fannie or freddie right now And we bought that at a four percent interest rate for 10 years fixed non recourse interest only from a seller
Mike Zlotnik: How did you get that? That’s a that’s a seller carry or not a seller carry, but the uh, a assumed loan, right?
Mario Dattilo: It’s a seller, it’s a seller financed deal. Yeah. Yeah. They financed it seller financing and we bought that at a seven plus percent cap rate going in. We’ll be at over a 10 percent cap rate stabilized. And that’s 130 site community, pristine quality.
Just mismanaged old timer that’s owned it for a long time. And, um, so those deals are still out there and it won’t be that way forever though, it’s, it is consolidating. And like you said, it gets harder and harder to buy large assets over time.
Mike Zlotnik: What kind of target returns, just a high level, you trying to generate on all these assets between the cashflow and the exit, and some of it, of course, is a function of. How you sell them a lot of assumptions based on sales price. And that’s where the complexity, uh, lies is, you know, interest rate environment does impact where the cap rates trade, especially consolidation buyers institutional. They, um, the cost of money to buy makes a big difference for them.
Mario Dattilo: Correct. Yeah. So your exit, you’re, you’re going in and you’re going out is going to have a big impact on how you perform on these. But, you know, for example, uh, investor level returns. mid to high teens IRR, um, on a 10 year, which is not easy to accomplish. Um, we have equity multiples of two plus multiples. And, uh, you know, I would say that cash on cash return of actual distributed cashflow is seven, eight, 10 percent per year.
Starting out, we want to be exceeding in year one. That’s if, if you look at it this way, The investors who are getting into these are looking for cash flow. IRR is important, you know, cap rate, not so much, at least going in, but they want to get distributions, otherwise they would buy other asset classes that they can, you know, accrue their PREF on, right?
So, our goal is to hit or exceed PREF in year one, Every year after that, we’re pushing up, but you know, ultimately people want to be at 10 plus. Typically, our deals will buy, stabilize, refinance into long term non recourse debt, return as much, if not all of the capital to the investors. So they’re in the deal with us for the long haul, getting distributions with no capital in or very little capital in. So their returns boost. You know, once stabilized,
Mike Zlotnik: yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So the value of play obviously, uh, is a critical component of these, all these deals and yes, the value add is a function of course of execution on these improvements, rent growth, and, uh, makes a lot of sense. And of course, market conditions, what the interest rates at a time of the refi, a lot depends on that.
Your debt service coverage ratio, all that math, uh, and, and the environment of predictable below interest rate. Uh, long gone, well, it feels like it was just the recent, recent past, but it’s feels like the recent past became pretty, pretty old past because the market changed, higher for longer interest rates.
And now we, we are already part of 25 and it feels like the rates are at least 10 year treasury has been climbing and where we wind up, will things reverse? We’ll see. But at least on a fundamental basis. What I do like about this strategy, at least my comment, this along with like open air shopping, along with, uh, industrial.
Uh, some assets of course sell storage if you can buy right. Some assets even multi family if you can buy right. The key question is buy right.
Mario Dattilo: Correct.
Mike Zlotnik: You could cash flow from day one. And, and, and, and that’s at least creates some downside protection. Uh, and then, uh, you just do the value add work, you execute, and then see what happens when you exit.
And the target returns that you said. In the mid teens into high teens, uh, on a long term basis is not a bad strategy. Uh, if folks look at this, you know, from a downside protection perspective, right? As long as it’s, it’s a risk reward ratio, right? How much risk you’re taking versus how much reward.
Overall, it’s a solid long term strategy, but then people have to have reasonable time horizon. Correct. Are your funds running on a 10 year time horizon? Is what, is it what you generally, uh, look at?
Mario Dattilo: We’re modeling at a seven, modeling on a seven and a ten year exit. We tell every single LP of ours, you should only get involved in this deal if you’re excited to be in it for ten or more years. Yeah, we’re, we’re long term cash flow hold. We are not a three to five year turnover fund by any means.
Mike Zlotnik: I totally, totally understand and support that idea. Most investors who are used to thinking, well, I’ll just park my money for a couple of years, and you go into real estate, it’s fundamentally doesn’t work.
Mario Dattilo: Yeah.
Mike Zlotnik: The, the thinking about, uh, short term horizon on a long term asset like real estate, especially asset that is value add, you have market cycles, you gotta have a long term perspective, otherwise you’re in the wrong place per se.
Mario Dattilo: Agreed. Yeah, and I would say, too, at this asset class specifically, we won’t be able to have the same conversation five years from now about the opportunity buying from who we’re buying from, and so we want to accumulate as many good assets at great prices, okay, we’re not just buying to buy, but we’re building this portfolio and going to hold it for an extended period of time Because we know the supply is dwindling more and more each year.
You have more communities being torn down by far than you have being, uh, being built. And so it becomes a more and more valuable asset, especially when it’s stabilized, um, the longer we hold it. So there’s, it’s, it, it, it’s a, it’s a supply and demand factor that’s definitely in favor of this asset class over anything else I’ve ever seen.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, understood. And that lack of new supply is a critical factor. Like you said, they don’t build these communities any longer. The cities and towns hate mobile home parks because the tax base, I mean, they wind up not getting the tax base that they could if they had something else on that land. In any case, and then it’s consuming sewer, it’s consuming water, and etc, etc.
From that perspective, it’s not the most ideal use for many municipalities. Yeah. So Mary, I appreciate your wisdom. You’re sharing how would folks reach out? What’s the best way to, uh, uh, reach out if you didn’t want to look at your funds or just ask questions, et cetera, et cetera.
Mario Dattilo: Sure. Equitygrowth.net. That’s all our asset management and fund management entity. And then, MarioDattilo.net if you want to learn about everything else we’re doing, I actually have an education company that teaches people how to actively go out and invest in these. And of course, the fund is for people who just want to sit back and collect a check because we’re doing all the work. So yeah, happy to, happy to help. I’m all over social media. Pretty easy to find.
Mike Zlotnik: Thank you, Mario. I appreciate your wisdom and, uh, have a great 20, 25. Hope it’s an, it’s an awesome, an awesome year for you for new acquisitions.
Mario Dattilo: Same to you. Thank you for having me on Mike. Appreciate it.
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