Welcome to our latest episode. Today, we are thrilled to welcome Matthew Burk, CEO of Fairway America and Chairman of its affiliate, Verivest. Matt brings a wealth of knowledge and experience in real estate finance, having founded Fairway Financial Services in 1992 and authored the seminal book on capital raising for middle market real estate entrepreneurs, “Capital Attraction.” This episode is packed with valuable insights on how to navigate the complexities of real estate investment and valuation.
In this engaging discussion, Matt shares his journey from founding Fairway Financial Services to becoming a market leader and trusted advisor for middle market real estate entrepreneurs. He explains the importance of understanding market conditions, structured finance, and the impacts of rising interest rates. Matt also dives into the current real estate market dynamics, touching on the challenges and opportunities across various asset classes, including multifamily, self-storage, and retail. He emphasizes the importance of having a strategic approach and leveraging reliable data to make informed investment decisions.
Whether you’re an experienced investor or just starting out, this episode provides a wealth of knowledge on how to succeed in real estate investing by understanding market trends and strategic planning. Tune in now to the full episode to gain invaluable insights from Matthew Burk and elevate your investment strategies!
HIGHLIGHTS OF THE EPISODE
00:24 – Guest intro: Matthew Burk
01:50 – Matt’s background and journey in real estate finance
04:00 – The importance of understanding market conditions
06:00 – The impact of rising interest rates on real estate
10:00 – Challenges and opportunities in the current real estate market
12:00 – Insights on multifamily, self-storage, and retail sectors
18:00 – Strategic approaches for successful real estate investing in 2024
22:50 – Wisdom from Matt and closing remarks
If you found this episode substantial and want to dig deeper into real estate, or maybe you want to discover better investment opportunities, be sure to check out www.tempofunding.com.
CONNECTING WITH THE GUEST
Website Fairway: https://fairwayamerica.com/
Website Verivest: https://verivest.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwb/
Full Transcript:
Intro: Welcome to The BigMikeFund Podcast, where you’ll learn about advanced wealth building strategies from real estate investing to creating massive ROI and secure retirement profits. So pour yourself a cup of coffee, grab a notepad, and lean in. Because Big Mike has got the mic, starting now.
Mike Zlotnik: Welcome to the BigMikeFund Podcast. I’m the Big Mike, Mike Zlotnik, and today it is my pleasure and a privilege to welcome back Matt Burk. CEO of Fairway America, and the Verivest. Hey Matt.
Matthew Burk: Hey Mike.
Mike Zlotnik: Thanks for coming back on the podcast. Appreciate you.
Matthew Burk: Of course. Of course, man. Anytime. I appreciate you being willing to continue to have me.
Mike Zlotnik: Let’s talk a little bit about what’s going on out there. Well, before we do that, we always ask about family. I know your kids are, you’ve taken your kids to colleges and how the kid’s doing, colleges, any, what’s, what’s new there?
Matthew Burk: Kids are great, man. Yeah, both in college, a junior and a freshman. They’re both doing well you know, getting ready to launch their, launch their lives.
So yeah, they’re doing great, man. I appreciate you asking about them. Thank you. And I know we’ve talked about your kids on the phone aside from this, so I won’t go into that. But yeah, it sounds like your kids are doing good too.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I appreciate that. They’re all all studying and it’s we have I know I have four kids, four monkeys and a cat.
Cat reminds me of the oldest who’s studying to be a veterinarian doctor. And so it’s all good. Just kids are busy. It’s, it’s important to Have them, their own lives and be successful and so anyway. All right, so let’s jump into real estate. What’s happening out there? We’re recording this in late march 2024 obviously higher for longer rates causing all kinds of grief in the industry and for a while A lot of people experiencing this in multifamily and it appears that self storage is not exempt just had another guest on on a podcast talking about storage and They’re having, besides the higher for longer rates, that’s impacting some deals that were value add, construction, development, etc.
They’re coming into the market now and they’re still sitting with floating rate debt. And then the other problem they’re experiencing is a little bit of the rates rental rates are softening. In the industry. So are we seeing a real recession after a couple of years or really bull market? It is I mean, that’s what it feels like just would love to hear your thoughts and other sectors industrial And anything that you you kind of get your hands into what are you feeling? What are you seeing?
Matthew Burk: Yeah, it’s a crazy time for commercial real estate. As you well know, Mike, very, very difficult time. I’d say in a lot of ways more difficult than the Great Recession for real estate. I mean, that was plenty hard back then, but this is a different combination of circumstances that make it unique.
And in some ways, even more challenging you know, clear, obviously office is the 1 that is sort of systemically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Weekend, right? And a lot of that’s, you know pandemic related, you know, changes in the way people work, not going back to the office, et cetera. So office is kind of the.
poster child, I think, for the difficulties in commercial real estate. But to your point, other asset classes are also being affected in various ways. And I think more than the asset class itself, I think value add projects, whether it’s multifamily storage, you know, any type of asset where you went into it, With an unstabilized situation and an intent to bring, you know, better management or some rehab or construction, you know, and then go through a process to reach stabilization.
I think any asset in that environment is having lots of problems primarily because a. You know that you can really only get floating rate debt on that stuff. You can put some caps on them, but at the time they were, you know, they’re expensive and they’re short duration and it doesn’t really solve the underlying problem, which is the softness in the market generally, which makes any new buyer have to deal with the higher rates.
And, you know, the freeze up of capital markets is affecting everything. So I think, you know, you pointed out. Okay. You know, multi value add multi has been very challenging. If you’re not stabilized yet storage, I would say you’re right. Mike, I’ve seen, I mean, we have a fairly good storage, good size for storage portfolio and deal with a fair number of storage people.
And I would say for the 1st time, really. In my lifetime, you’re seeing storage kind of you know, being more challenged. I mean, I think they’re having a harder time getting the rental rates than they once did. Storage was always the thing that, Hey, it’s recession proof, right? And, and clearly nothing is completely recession proof.
Cause you never know what the combination of circumstances are, but you know, the sum total of it, Mike, I’d say every asset class in commercial real estate Is being affected to varying degrees value add in particular, I’d say office leads the list value add is 2nd, you know, with multi storage. Even industrial and retail retail is the highest from everything I read.
It’s the highest occupancy rates it’s ever had. So, if you remember a few years ago, Mike, everybody was predicting the death of retail and people were scared shitless that retail was going to be gone because of the Amazon effect. And now you read that occupancy and physical retail is the highest it’s ever been.
So, you know, it’s a crazy market on all fronts and I think it’s not over yet. I think it’s going to take some time for it to shake out, but eventually it comes back around and I think there’ll be new opportunities sprouting up, you know, hopefully later this year and into 25, 26 and beyond.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, man, I appreciate that, that view and we’ll, we’ll talk about the opportunities next, but I just wanted to dissect a little bit of what you said that it’s, it’s really the the broader market forces that are impacting things but they’re also contrarian situations.
So multifamily and storage have been built heavily during the great bull run. A lot of new projects went into construction. In the hot markets, in the sunbelt, wherever things were going really well, more investment kind of went into those markets. And a lot of these deals were originated when the interest rates were low, and now the product is coming to the market.
And it’s coming to the market when the interest rates are high, floating rate debt. And they’re dealing with the much more difficult absorption rates because the market softened up and the forces of the market still exist. And back to the retail. Retail, one of the strengths of the retail is there’s been so little supply built.
So feel the new projects that the retailers is just holding up while the hot strategies and hot asset classes and hot markets are suffering. It’s almost like back to the Warren Buffett, be greedy when others are fearful, be fearful when others are greedy. If you follow the trend, sometimes the trend breaks and it breaks hard and the opposite contrarian play. Thinking comes in.
Matthew Burk: Yeah, that’s true, Mike. And I think it’s, I think it’s harder in real estate than a lot of other asset classes and as much as it’s so illiquid and it moves so slowly, right? Real estate takes forever for things to happen right between entitlements and construction and lease up and all of the things that go into it.
Yeah, I agree with that. It’s it’s like an aircraft carrier compared to a speedboater, right? This is not a publicly traded market where you can press a button and liquidate shares, right? This is a long term hold. Environment, so people make decision years in advance that are extremely difficult. To to undo once those decisions have been made.
Right so you know, it’s easy to look back in hindsight and see. You know, a lot of what you’re describing. It’s much harder. In real time, you know, to, let’s say, in 2017, go out and build a bunch of retail, right? At that point in the market, what if people think you’re absolutely nuts, right? And getting financing for that would be hard.
Getting equity to put money into those things is hard, right? At that point in time. But now, had you done it, you 5, 6 years later, you look like a genius.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, that’s the difficult part is the market has trends and hot sectors and the majority of people respond to the recent information and then unfortunately, or fortunately, sometimes it works really well and sometimes the trend breaks and really this hike in interest rates, enough said about that.
It broke a long 40 year trend of interest rates going down. So that trend broke and it broke hard and it changed drastically. And real estate, as you said, is a slow moving beast. And when you make plans you can’t expect the changes of this magnitude to be on such a short amount of time.
Matthew Burk: And it happens so fast, man.
I mean, just the, the speed with which Rates shot up just was like a shock to the system, right? And put it, put it in kind of cardiac arrest. And, you know, I think it’s still trying to recover from that cardiac arrest and it’s, it’s going to be a while. So I know that everybody out there in the real estate world is grinding really hard right now to try to make good decisions and, and, you know, produce good outcomes for the assets that they, that they’ve already, you know, the hand that they’ve already dealt themselves.
Mike Zlotnik: That’s right. So let’s switch the conversation. I’ll just add one more comment on this and then we’ll switch into future. So the one comment is that real estate trades on leverage and a lot of people forget that. So when times are good, leverage magnifies returns. When the times are bad, leverage destroys equity because of how the math works.
And a lot of people are experiencing the pain. Because of leverage. And when, when, when the markets were, were hot, the leverage was high, it’s almost all this stuff looking back is all logical. Unfortunately that leverage is a, is a beast that it’s a risk. And most people didn’t, didn’t really appreciate that how, how, how much of a risk it is.
And now it’s a reverse if hearing the leverage is incredibly low. And it’s almost like when the time is up, atune. When the writing fresh checks now makes a lot more sense than a couple of years ago. But the banks are tight, investors are tight, everyone is tight. So what does the future look like? Where do you see opportunities?
Where do you think the capital Should be flowing later part of this year. What sectors, what kind of deals what financial structures just look, looking forward. So we, we can look back in the rear view mirror. We see what has happened now. Fresh capital is hard to get, but it is the right time to come in.
Folks who actually have the courage to write the checks now can have generational upside. If they actually overcome the fear.
Matthew Burk: I think there’s a good chance of that. That is accurate. Mike. I mean, you know, nobody can predict the future. It’s a much easier to predict the past than the future. You know, I think what to your point around leverage, right?
It’s like, you’re right. It’s a dual sided. Coin, right? It magnifies returns and when things go well, and it magnifies losses when they don’t, but I would say part of the problem is that it’s easy to say all of that. But the challenge becomes in real time. If you had done a deal, let’s say, 3 or 4 years ago, Mike, where you went to the investors and said, we’re going to do this deal with all cash.
And put no leverage on it, because we’re concerned that leverage is going to you know, potentially cause some problems and you go out and you try to do a raise a, you have to raise 3 times as much money as you, as you would, if you put leverage on it and be, you have to, you’re looking at returns that are vastly lower, which makes that money harder to attract if you’re a sponsor or a syndicator.
In the 1st place, and the reality is the vast majority of investors do not invest in that deal because the returns look poor compared to another deal that someone else puts in front of them and has leverage on it. Right? So it’s, it’s very easy to look at things and be able to say that it’s vastly more difficult.
To have the ability to function in an environment like that, unless you essentially have an unlimited amount of cash. Which very few market players do. So you’re constantly, you know, competing against other people in the market that are doing things that that make it challenging to adhere to that level of discipline, even if you believe that it was true.
Right? So I feel like that’s part of the challenge in today’s world that, you know, the Internet, you know, And the lack of, I mean, it used to be, if you had some sort of, of competitive advantage on getting information, right. In real estate, you could do really well because you possess superior information than the seller, right?
That doesn’t really exist much anymore today because the ubiquity of information, I mean, it’s everywhere. It’s at your fingertips and it’s just getting more and more and more that way. So I’d say Mike, it’s a very, very competitive environment. The forces at play and the whole thing make functioning in that environment super challenging.
And I just think, you know, everybody, investors and managers need to really think about, you know, how they’re going to have their place in that. In that market, and to that point, Mike, to your question around opportunities, I think there will be tremendous opportunities going forward and not necessarily so much that any 1 person’s got some sort of secret sauce.
That some other person doesn’t have, but because once you start going on the upswing, right, basically everybody does well for 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 years when the market is moving in that direction. Right? And right now, real estate is getting crushed, but look at everything else. Look at the stock market, you know, look at, look at Bitcoin, look at, you know, all of the other asset classes for the most part are at or near historical highs and real estate is getting hammered.
You know, because of the interest rate environment. So it doesn’t take a genius in my mind to figure out that real estate is, it will come back, it, it always does, but when and how much and which asset class and what type and which sub market, you know, those, I don’t pretend to have, you know, I have opinions, but I don’t have answers, you know, to those questions.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, thanks, Matt. And I’ll add this comment to what you said. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like this. I actually reached out to a friend who I know is very prominently invested in Bitcoin and has a lot of friends in the Bitcoin. And they were all enjoying phenomenal days. Of course, the stock market is enjoying phenomenal days and folks not necessarily want to be contrarian in this environment.
And the appeal is to diversify be just, it’s just realized that the story can change and your great right can end and things could reverse. That’s right. You could be experiencing what real estate is experiencing. So diversification is always a proven strategy in any market. And as you have, we’ll appreciate it, a well performing assets.
Perhaps it’s the time to take some chips off the table from those strategies and actually go into the one strategy that feels beaten up right now. And again, we don’t know if it’s the bottom of the market, of course. The market may change, but gradually, at least over time, the rate hiking is over. It’s still taking time to find the bottom of the market.
But overall, as rates continue to rise, To stay where they are, go down over time. The market can improve with, with, with softening of the rates and other fundamentals. So it’s, it’s almost again, we don’t know the future, but it’s back to looking for the opportunities in the beaten up sector versus tripling down on something that’s already a home run.
That’s what real estate actually experienced is the reverse. If you, you, we had a great bull run. From a great financial crisis all the way, COVID had a blimp, and then if you discount the COVID blimp, all the way through, probably end of 22, I don’t know when things started, starting to happen.
Matthew Burk: Yeah, it’ll, I mean, really until through 22, right? I mean, it started going, started happening in the second quarter of 22, but I mean, even. Second, third quarter, you started seeing it coming. And then by the end of 22, it just sort of, well, yeah, we, we just said for that velocity of, of transactions falling off the cliff, which is, yeah, they fall off a cliff, right?
I mean, transaction volumes. And then, of course, then in valuations, there was no market discovery. So what is something worth? When, and I remember this, even in the great recession, we were making loans, Mike, we were trying to what? Calculate what is a loan to value? It’s like when you can’t really determine with any confidence what the V is and the loan to value and the LTV, then how do you know what your LTV is like?
You know? So then you go back to fundamentals. Well, what does it cost to build it? Right? How much is the land? What would it cost if I had to replicate it? How much demand is there for that? I mean, it’s. You know, it’s, it’s interesting how underwriting changes rapidly when you go from one environment to another, right?
I mean, two, two, three years ago, I mean, there was an insatiable appetite for, for multifamily and for, you know, lots of real estate except office. You know, to begin with, or maybe retail at that point, because we were still, you know, the Amazon effect was still scaring the crap out of everybody. But, yeah, it’s, you know, it’s a fascinating market.
Mike. I mean, it’s never never ending. Always evolving. I do think there are, I mean, as, you know, we do a lot of work to help people set up funds and administer those funds. So I’m seeing lots of people that are. Putting together vehicles right now to get ready to do whatever strategy they think it’s going to be.
That’s going to carry them out the other side of this and go on a go on a run. But, you know, how soon does that start happening? Hard to say, but I think we’re getting closer than we have been really in the last couple of years.
Mike Zlotnik: Well, let’s talk about that. So where do you see opportunities? What is VeriVest doing setting up these new funds?
And then also Fairway, you launch capital markets, you’re helping some managers to raise capital into their strategies. Just curious give us an update on what’s what’s happening on the VeriVest front and on the Fairway capital markets front.
Matthew Burk: Yeah, well, there are buses and advisory and, you know, helping people set up funds, thinking through, put them together properly in the 1st place, doing the back end administration to make sure that they’re accounting for them properly and all that.
We’ve been doing that for years. At very best, I’d say there’s a lot of interest in people doing that. These days. We’ve had quite a few engagements for people setting up new funds over there. I’d say you’re seeing some of the traditional stuff. You’re seeing some rescue capital. Come in, you’re seeing some I mean, with mobile home parks, we’ve got some storage we’ve got, you know, just there’s a good variety of things.
I think most people are optimistic that. They’re going to be able to find some distressed acquisitions. It really comes down like to, you know, buying at the right basis. Right? And I think that’s what the consensus is from a lot of these folks that are putting the funds together is they’re reaching the point where the basis is going to be attractive enough that, you know, they want to go ahead and move forward on it.
You know, on the capital markets front, as, you know, for years, we had we’ve put together the, the, the summits that we brought managers and investors to, and a lot of folks raised a lot of capital there. We never really, and we never did get compensated for it based on that model. So we’ve put together a model that we run through everything through a broker dealer on all these funds and be able to help try to find investors and bring them to what I consider to be.
You know, managers that are our niche. Mike is working with managers that are sub institutional in size. Right, because Blackstone and Carlisle and Cerberus and all these big shops, they don’t, they don’t need to do that. They go to institutional money and get money from pension funds. But the vast majority of fund managers who are in the.
You know, even 3 or 400Million dollars is considered a small fund for, it’s by institutional standards. So people run and funds 20, 30, 50, 100Million dollars. It’s very, very difficult to find reliable ways. To scale your business, raise capital effectively short of doing it yourself. So we believe that we have a, you know, been doing this long enough to understand deeply what the problems challenges are.
And that’s really what capital markets is trying to design to do is bring quality. Products that has been approved and gone through a process with the broker dealer on the shelf, make it available to investors and let them shop and pick and choose what makes sense for them.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I appreciate that explanation.
So are you seeing the appetite coming back? Into some of these new offerings you’re bringing to the market, because one of the big challenges today is people are just scared. They’re scared. They don’t know if it’s the bottom of the market or not. Like you said, what’s the V in the LTV is still unclear.
A lot depends on where the interest rates will shake out. A lot of unknowns. And it’s, like you said, deep, deep enough buy. Look at the cost basis. If you’re buying per pound and the price per pound feels steeply discounted versus reconstruction, then perhaps it’s worth picking it up. But it is still difficult to run the right math, conservative math.
That you build a, a use case scenario where the numbers pencil, if you get ultra conservative based on current interest rates even the deep discount may not feel big enough. And it comes down to the underwriting and a lot of investors, it’s the pendulum swung all the way to the other side where no matter what you tell them, they’re still scared and concerned.
And it’s, it’s a lot of also mentality. What, what, what, what, what happens to the money I wrote a couple of years ago? And they want a serious solution there before they write a fresh check. So it’s kind of a very concerning environment for a lot of non institutional investors. Maybe The, the big funds can write a check comfortably, but individual investors, high net worth folks, they just hurt, you know, they, they, they’re caught, they’ve been caught a few, at least a few times, and now it’s, it’s a very it’s a very strange experience where, you know, I’ve had these discussions with them and said, well, I should have been in a stock market, why didn’t, you know, why I got out and I went to real estate.
Then if they timed the market badly, then it’s, it’s a worse for the, all the experiences. That’s it. They took their money out right after COVID and the market recovered. And then they, they, they, they threw their money into real estate 21, 22. And that looks terrible. Now, there’s some people who have had that absolutely horrific timing and they’re great people, but the market has been brutal to them for whatever reason.
So coming to them and asking for a fresh check. Boy, that feels tough.
Matthew Burk: There’s no question, Mike. There’s no question, and I do think that there are plenty of those people that will be cautious and conservative and may choose not to write any more checks because of that experience, but at the same time there are also a lot of other people that have not yet written those checks or You know, our dabbling into this for the 1st time, and it’s a very good time.
But we believe, you know, again, we can’t predict for sure. But we think, based on all the fundamentals that you’ve laid out, Mike, and we’ve been discussing that it’s probable. That it is a good time for those people. So, and there’s also greater interest from financial planners and registered investment advisors than there ever has been.
In an alternative investments, including real estate. So all of that to say, do I, you know, am I, I do see some number of people that are more interested than in the past, but I also see lots of people who are fresh off of having been disappointed in the outcome of their previous investments and aren’t going to do anything immediately.
So it’s going to take time, no question, but as everything in life, it goes in waves and it waxes and wanes. And, you know, it ebbs and flows. And, you know, you never can predict exactly when does it. When is the point where it’s where it switches from. I’ve been to flowing from waxing to waning or waning to waxing, right?
It’s you just have to be. In a position that when it does happen, you know that you’ve got something there that that provides value to people. So, I think from our standpoint, like, there’s lots of people in the market that are good quality folks that deserve. You know, the money and that the investors should be investing, but you never know which 1’s going to pan off.
So, to your point, Mike, I think people need to have money in the stock market. And alternatives in real estate and bonds. I mean, you don’t want to put all of your eggs in any 1 basket, right? Because you never know which basket is going to have a problem. I know Warren Buffett talks about it’s easy for Warren Buffett to say, and he’s been, you know, look, he’s the guy’s been wildly successful, but even you take Warren Buffett.
I mean, when he 1st started in this business, what was this whole thing? Find cigar butts. Things that were undervalued by other people. It’s just so much harder to do that in the 2024 than it was in, you know, 1950 or whenever. You know, Warren what is he? 95 now? 96. Love Warren Buffett. Right? I mean, and I, and I love those principles.
It’s just the reality of the market is that. It’s very difficult to, to get an, an edge and information in, in the digital age.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah I’ll acknowledge that and say, yeah, I agree. Generally, the reason people go into real estate, especially private real estate is it is an inefficient market. And because of inefficiencies, you can get.
Better opportunities, but these opportunities and inefficiencies may be getting smaller with the digital information age. So no, no argument there at all. But I still feel that the real estate can be a better way to invest private real estate. As you can’t find,
Matthew Burk: I agree, I mean, by and large, man, I mean, like, over if I look at it with the application of a long term time horizon, I mean, had vastly more wins than losses.
Right? I forget who it was. I heard the other day, but I was on a podcast and somebody said it was, I think it was Gary Vanderchuck, but he was saying. You know, I want to in my lifetime, I want to go, you know, I forget the exact number, but, you know, I want to my, my win loss record. I want it to be 125 and 72.
right? It’s like, it’s not, it’s not 100. it’s not 200 and 0. right? There’s going to be some losses, but I want substantially more wins than losses. That’s, you know, that’s reality of life. Right? And I feel like that’s how you have to play the game is you’re not going to win 100 percent of the time.
Mike Zlotnik: Well, on that topic, and I’m not an expert, but I look at baseball, and if you have 100, what is it, 62 games, and if you win 95, that’s pretty good.
And that means you made a playoff, won a division most likely. I mean, 100 is considered to be phenomenal, and it’s kind of interesting, because it’s not a great percentage. You have 60 percent or 65, or 62, 63 percent success, and the other games you lose. And that’s the expectation in investing. You gotta expect some of these games that you lose and some games that you win.
As long as statistically, on a long term basis, you you do well. That’s the baseball season, right?
Matthew Burk: Yeah, and, you know, and, and handle the losses with as much, you know, class and integrity and, and transparency and forthrightness as you possibly can and, you know, live to fight another day. Right? I mean, that’s, that’s what’s going on all over the place and the market, you know, at the moment.
Mike Zlotnik: Yeah, I appreciate your wisdom. I appreciate your sharing. And again good luck to FAIR with capital markets. Hopefully it takes off really well. Certainly there’s the right opportunity and same thing on the variable side. It feels like a bunch of new managers will enter the market to participate in these opportunities.
And of course, existing folks will also need we launched the product and continue to come up with new opportunities. So thank you, Matt. What’s the best way to reach out once again? Verivest. com fairway america. com is there. Yeah.
Matthew Burk: LinkedIn is always a great place to get me personally, if you can find me on LinkedIn and email’s good. Matt, matt. burk at fairway america. com by the best one.
Mike Zlotnik: Thank you, man. Thank you for coming.
Matthew Burk: Yeah. Mike, thanks for having me, man. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you so much.
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